The Maguire Podcast: 65: Water Collaborative Delivery

Brian Cooper

Welcome to the Maguire Podcast. My name is Brian Cooper with Maguire, the host of this podcast. Today we’re discussing a topic that is becoming increasingly important as communities across the country invest in aging water infrastructure, collaborative project delivery. For decades, many water infrastructure projects have been delivered through traditional design-bid-build methods. Today, however, we’re seeing a growing number of utilities exploring alternatives such as progressive design-build, design-build, construction manager at risk, and other collaborative approaches designed to improve outcomes, reduce risks, and create stronger partnerships. Joining me today is Barb Martin, executive director of the Water Collaborative Delivery Association. WCDA is a leading organization dedicated to helping the water and wastewater industry deliver better projects through successful collaborative delivery solutions. Their mission centers around education, advocacy, and research to help owners make informed project delivery decisions. Barb, thank you for joining us on the Maguire Podcast.

Barb Martin

It’s a pleasure to be here.

Brian Cooper

So many of our listeners know who Water Collaborative Delivery Association is, but they may not know you and your background. Tell us a little bit about your journey in the water industry and what led you to your current role as the executive director.

Barb Martin

Sure. Well, I’m Barb Martin. I’m executive director of the Water Collaborative Delivery Association. I’ve been a water professional now going on 30 years. And it was a profession like many others that I fell into by accident. I mean, I started college as a music performance major. So you couldn’t get any further from water, but I have stayed by intention. And that’s really because the water industry provides meaningful work, interesting and challenging work, and work that you get to do with the best people. But my specific journey I started after grad school on the manufacturer equipment provider side of things. I spent about half my career working for manufacturers of analytical equipment and process treatment. equipment and then moved from there to the American Water Works Association, where I stayed for 12 years and oversaw really all of the technical activities they did, which included things like tanks, which included things like project delivery. And when the opportunity came up to move to the Water Collaborative Delivery Association, I really saw the opportunity to help an organization extend work that is so meaningful and so important in delivering safe water to communities efficiently and effectively.

Brian Cooper

So you talk about efficiency. in your answer there. Many owners know design bid build, design build, progressive design build, CMR. There’s so many of these terms out there. So what I want to start with is, can you provide some simple overview of like, when we talk about collaborative delivery, what are we talking about?

Barb Martin

Yeah, that’s a great question. And there really is a spectrum of collaborative delivery options that we can talk about that are encompassed by that term. So let me walk you through the various delivery methods that comprise collaborative delivery. And I think to do that, we’ll start just briefly with design bid build, which is the traditional project delivery method that most utilities are familiar with. And that is where a designer is contracted to design a given project, that design is then bid out, and then that bid is awarded to the lowest price responsive bidder. We’re all familiar with this. We’ve been doing it for a long time. So 2 separate contracts with a designer and a contractor, low bid price, and then what can happen after that job is awarded is there can be change orders to cover maybe things that were unanticipated during the design process.

Brian Cooper

So before we go forward, what kind of started this whole, like what other methods could there be or why did we, why are we going, and I don’t want to say going away from, but why are we coming up with alternative delivery methods to the traditional method?

Barb Martin

Yeah, I think that’s a fair question. And traditional design bid build, I mean, it has challenges. when do you actually know the price of the project? Not on bid day, because there can be the, change orders. there can be, it can take longer in terms of schedule. That’s a challenge. And then risk management is another challenge associated with design, bid, build. And water professionals are innovative. And what I love about this industry is we always find new ways of doing things. And so that’s where collaborative delivery methods really came to be. And so I’ll kind of take you through the spectrum if I take the next step to CMAR or construction management at risk, also known as in some places as CMGC. That’s kind of the next step in the progression. A utility still has two separate contracts, one with the designer. one with a contractor. But in the case of CMR, the contractor will be brought into the process earlier, maybe at about 30% designed so that they can give input into constructability of a plant, which can be huge because if you think of something like, say, an existing facility that needs to put in key fast treatment and needs to stay running while they’re doing it, having that construction input about how do you do this, how do you face this, how do you keep operations running can just be invaluable. And that process can also lead you towards getting to a project price earlier in the process as well. But still CMAR, it still has two separate contracts. So it in some ways feels comfortable to owners, but it’s still not through design build. So when you look at design build, and there’s really two forms of design build, fixed price design build and progressive design build, this is where an owner has a single contract with a design build firm. And that single contract means a single point of accountability and means a truly collaborative team that works together to address project challenges. And in the case of progressive design build, really go through an iterative process to define the project scope, which gets you to a contract price from there, the project then proceeds into construction and commissioning. So let me stop there and see if you have any questions about design build.

Brian Cooper

No, that’s great. I guess take me into the mindset of a municipality. And I have a project that we need to do. How do I get started? Because like you talked about, there’s always been design, bid, build. And so that’s what everybody’s used to. But how do I try to determine which one of these is right for me, my project, and what I’m trying to do?

Barb Martin

Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think my first piece of advice on that is to think about project delivery with intention. And a lot of people just revert to what they’re comfortable with, what they’ve always done. But some of the challenges facing utilities these days with infrastructure renewal and replacement, growing plans, limited financing, limited resources. You really need to think about all the different ways that a project can be delivered. So think about the whole universe of delivery methods and then take a look at a couple things. One is your project objectives. What are the key drivers for completing this project? Another would be what is your comfort zone as a utility? Are you willing to give up a little bit of control or are you gonna be very prescriptive about the process or equipment that you wanna see? What is your schedule tolerance? What is the schedule risk? What is the degree of risk sharing that you might be after? Really think about your comfort zones with the project. And also it’s really important for utilities to look at what is permissible in their given geography. And if it’s not permissible, obviously don’t do it, but make your voice heard. And if design build truly is an option you want that is not available to you, I would encourage utilities to reach out to the regulator, reach out to WCDA because we have worked in many states to change the paradigm. So it’s a tool in the toolbox for all utilities.

Brian Cooper

What do you say to people when, because this has been going on for a long time, but it’s very, very new. Do you see a difference between size of municipality or water system and the choices they make inside of their delivery method?

Barb Martin

That’s a really great question. And you know, I would say maybe one of the myths of design build, and this was true in its earlier years, is that it’s just for big projects. It’s really not. It can be used by utilities of all sizes and has been used by utilities of all sizes very successfully. And for smaller systems, having a single point of accountability, having one person you call as opposed to multiple contracts can be something that’s very attractive because it’s just less to manage. And as resources around collaborative delivery continue to grow through what WCDA is developing and what’s available through the Design Build Institute of America or DBIA, there’s more out there than ever in terms of education for utilities that’s very available, very approachable, but also there’s a role called an owner advisor. And that is a separate entity that a utility can work with that acts really as an advisor to the owner to help guide them through the collaborative delivery process. And that can be something really useful to utilities of all sizes and utilities that might be new to collaborative delivery in general.

Brian Cooper

Now let’s talk about legislation. I think part of the myth around this and what we see in our industry in water tanks is we’ll be talking to a customer and they’re like, well, we can’t do that because of our state laws. And people don’t realize that because of the work your organization and others are doing, state laws are always changing. One of the things I love about your organization is your legislative map because you can go to it and say, oh, here’s all the things I can do in the state of X based on their state law. So what does that look like and how is that changing within laws and states to allow, you know, municipalities owners to choose different things?

Barb Martin

Yeah, that’s a great question. And advocacy is a pillar of WCDA’s work. Our vision for advocacy is really to create an industry where all communities, all waters and all funding sources have access to collaborative delivery as a tool in the toolbox. We don’t necessarily say every project is right for collaborative delivery, but we want it to be available to all. Ultimately, we want utilities to choose the delivery method that is right for their project and we want the project to go for them. But in terms of advocacy at WCDA has been around for 20 years and over that time we’ve worked across many states to to change the legislative paradigm. One of our most recent examples is the state of California where over the past five years have made CMAR and progressive design build available to to all utilities for water projects. And we’re currently working in the state of Texas where design build is prohibited for use by utilities serving a population of less than 100,000, which is the vast majority of utilities in this state with great infrastructure and water resources needs.

Brian Cooper

So let’s talk a little bit about the tank market that we live in. What we’ve noticed is, you know, wastewater has been doing this kind of delivery for a long time and it’s slowly moving. What unique considerations are there in these type of projects that make different delivery methods I don’t want to say better, but maybe better suited to the utility in their project.

Barb Martin

Yeah, With tanks, I mean, tanks are unique. And I know that there’s so many different kinds of installations and site considerations, but you’re balancing, but demand and capacity and water quality and fire protection all in one very heavy structure sitting in one place. So some of the challenges that may lend themselves to collaborative delivery methods are things around geotechnical and seismic challenges, which I know can vary a lot from site to site. And with collaborative delivery, the manufacturer of the tank, the equipment provider, can get involved earlier in the process and be able to share their unique expertise just to help that design process go better. And the other piece of the puzzle is supply chain challenges. I mean, it’s a really, really active market right now, and ever since Since COVID, a lot of utilities have struggled with issues in getting equipment on site when they need it, long lead times, cost escalation. And so being able to bring in that manufacturer earlier in the process, they’re going to have that knowledge of what’s going on in their company. What is that lead time? How can we get ahead of it? And really factor in those equipment specific considerations that can help make the project successful.

Brian Cooper

In so many water projects specifically, water tanks, water treatment, wastewater treatment, these are projects that are only built once in a generation or multiple generations. And so how does that factor into what you guys talk about as this partnership where you want experts in the field to be on the project team because it’s something that that you’re only going to do probably once in people’s lifetime.

Barb Martin

Yeah, and we realize that in collaborative delivery. And although a utility may do one of these projects once in a lifetime or once in a career, the practitioners and the professionals in the collaborative delivery space do this on a daily basis and are juggling multiple projects at any time. So what I would encourage utilities to do, and it’s a little bit different. I mean, collaborative delivery, the first time for a utility is a mindset shift and we can talk more about that. But we really encourage utilities to engage the market early. And this process is called market sounding. They might put out, you know, have a discussion with the industry about an RFP that’s coming, kind of float their terms by the industry and get feedback to make sure that their project ultimately is is attractive to the market when it comes to bidding to make sure they get competitive bids on that project, but also they can get input as to how to set their project up for success. So that it will run smoothly and successfully and they will have market interest in working with them.

Brian Cooper

You talked about the mindset shift, and this is what I really want to talk about. How do you get an industry that has been very much, this is how we do things, How do you start moving them or have the discussions with them to explain collaborative delivery, the options available to them, and move them from, hey, this is the model that’s been used forever, but you have so many more options today.

Barb Martin

We actually did research on this as an organization back in 2023 to find the drivers for organizational readiness. And interestingly enough, they very much match up with the drivers for industry innovation that were identified by several Water Research Foundation projects about 10 years ago. And those factors are people, process and tools. So in terms of people, I’ll just take you through some of the things to think about. It’s having a project champion at a utility, really having someone who can help get everybody on board the collaborative delivery bus, so to speak, and in the right direction and getting those people in the right seats on the bus. Because that mindset shift isn’t just a utility leader or the engineering team. There are changes with finance. There are changes with procurement. There are changes in terms of legal issues and how contracts are developed that everybody really needs to get their head around and be able to change to do a project successfully. So there’s the people piece. There’s certainly the process piece because like I said, collaborative delivery works differently. And if you look at say the procurement documents of a utility, for a design bid build type of project paradigm, they are going to look very, very different operative delivery method. It can be a very hard shift for people used to doing the same things in the same ways all the time. Our piece of advice for this is to talk about the elephant in the room. That’s a really important aspect of collaborative delivery in general. It’s built on trust and it’s really important to talk about the challenging things, whether it’s changing the way you always do things, whether it’s, instead of having a cone of silence with your RFP doing a market sounding and talking to the industry and getting their feedback. And the other thing I’ll throw in there is talking to peers. There are many utilities now that have had successful collaborative delivery projects. WCDA has a project database, so does DBIA, and it can be really, really helpful to talk to your utility peers. about how they’ve done it right. And the other piece of advice I would add is to get educated. WCDA offers a wide range of educational programs. They can be in-house for utilities. We also have open enrollment sessions around the country and bring that entire team that needs to be on the bus to get grounded in the different collaborative delivery methods. What is the terminology, what things need to change and make sure everybody is starting on the same page and setting themselves up for success?

Brian Cooper

What are some of the biggest misconceptions that you hear from utility owners regarding collaborative delivery?

Barb Martin

Yeah, I mean, we talked about collaborative deliveries only for big projects. And no, it’s really for projects of all shapes and sizes. There’s another misconception that utilities give up control. And well, that’s somewhat true because design and build is an iterative process. As you are working through the design process, you’re continually discussing the project scope and the project price. And this is a process we call the squiggly line, which I know you can’t see on an audio podcast, but price will kind of go up and down as you’re working through the scope and what things look like until you get to the contract price. So the owner is very involved in these discussions, and so they do maintain influence on the project. I think the other piece is, oh, well, design build, really minimizes competition, it minimizes transparency, and actually data from the Design-Build Institute of America shows that most projects do see a strong representation from undersolved business enterprises or UBEs. And after a contract price is agreed to, the project can proceed with open book pricing, which essentially means the utility can see every line item that goes into the costing. So there is a high degree of transparency available if utilities choose that option.

Brian Cooper

So we talk about all the great things about collaborative delivery. Are there some areas where that may not be a good fit or the right fit for me?

Barb Martin

Yeah, I think it’s really important to think up front about what is the right design or delivery method for a given project. And if it’s a really simple project and it really doesn’t have a big. schedule driver like sometimes you have if you’ve got SRF funding with a deadline, it’s something you’re used to. It may not be the best fit. Certainly if it’s not permissible in your area, again, not going to be a good fit, although I would encourage you to speak up and talk to your state regulator because that’s how discussions about changing the legislative paradigm move.

Brian Cooper

So you guys have a a catchphrase, better projects together. What does that mean to you and your team at WCDA?

Barb Martin

Oh, I love that tagline. And if you look across the water industry at the challenges that utilities are facing today with infrastructure renewal and replacement, limited funding, water resource scarcity, changing regulations, These problems are bigger than any of us can solve alone. And that extends to project delivery. I truly believe that as an industry, we are stronger together. And that includes delivering projects. When a team works together from the start, the outcomes are delivering safe and clean water to communities faster and more efficiently. And that’s a win for all of us.

Brian Cooper

How does collaborative delivery create a different dynamic between owners, engineers, contractors? Because in your traditional method, it kind of makes them adversarial. So what does that do in collaborative delivery?

Barb Martin

It does. It’s a much less adversarial environment because everybody is collaborating and working towards a common goal. And I mean, who doesn’t like to work in an environment that’s not cut through, that’s not adversarial? I think we all want to work together and the foundation of that really is trust. And certainly trust doesn’t replace having a contract. A contract, a well-written contract is very, very important. But a contract also doesn’t specify trust in how a team is going to work together. And so through a collaborative delivery project, utilities and project teams will do various things to help build trust through the process. But it all starts with. the essentials of being a good human, right? Listening, communicating, setting ground rules, and a lot of projects will go as far as to do icebreakers, but also set up a project charter, which is the entire team commits to the mission of the project, the objectives of the project, the norms of how things are going to be run. They sign it, and this is a document that really guides their work through the entire process.

Brian Cooper

We haven’t talked about innovation. And I think, as technology changes, all of the things that are going on, how does collaborative delivery encourage innovation that in the traditional procurement model may never surface?

Barb Martin

Yeah. And collaborative delivery and innovation really go hand in hand. In fact, some of WCDA’s early research from around 10 years ago, we did a project to determine what areas of the market collaborative delivery was being applied in. And one of the first ones, as you said earlier, was wastewater and advanced water treatment. So really pushing the envelope in terms of new directions for the industry. But what collaborative delivery allows, typically a traditional design to build project is going to be very prescriptive about what the process is, what the design is. But design to build collaborative delivery is performance based. So you totally may say, hey, this is where I need to get to in terms of the outcome or the performance or the water quality or whatever those goals. And then the project team is free to determine innovative solutions to help meet it, which kind of can, if a utility is comfortable with innovation, can allow for out-of-the-box thinking. So new and different treatment processes. For tanks, maybe it’s a new construction of tank consideration of the coatings that go inside it because collaborative delivery really does allow for more consideration of the overall life cycle costs of the project. And with many innovations out there, tank coatings included, those life cycle costs can really drive the big picture of the project over time and bring some real benefits to utilities.

Brian Cooper

What trends, let’s talk about the future a little bit. What trends are you watching at WCDA most closely over the next 5 to 10 years that you see on the horizon?

Barb Martin

Obviously collaborative delivery trends and right now with collaborative delivery, that needle is going up. It’s the fastest form of project delivery in the industry. I suspect that is something that will continue to grow and eventually we’re going to flip that needle and collaborative delivery is going to be the norm in how projects. are delivered. Used to be called alternative delivery, but maybe not so much anymore. But beyond that, things like infrastructure financing, hoping and advocating for full funding of the SRFs and WIFIA is certainly something that’s on our radar. Water infrastructure needs, water scarcity needs. regulatory changes that may impact collaborative delivery. These are kind of all the things that we are watching as we go into the future. And of course, just what is the impact of technology going to be things like generative AI and what benefits do they bring to the collaborative delivery process and utilities and projects in general? I mean, some of that is the. yet to be seen, but promises some exciting opportunities.

Brian Cooper

If I’m an owner and I’m hearing this for the first time or I’ve heard a little about collaborative delivery, where do I need to go to educate myself to say, okay, how do I learn about this and where can I go?

Barb Martin

There are wonderful resources available from the Water Collaborative Delivery Association and also from our partners in this space, the Design Build Institute of America or DBIA. We offer education programs and one of the first things the utility can do to really get up to speed on collaborative delivery is to get educated about the process, learn about what’s available in the industry, learn about how to do it right and get started on the right foot. Beyond education, WCDA offers a variety of guidance, including, I’ll show you this one, the Water and Wastewater Collaborative Delivery Handbook, which our 7th edition of this work will be coming out next April. A variety of procurement guides for various collaborative delivery methods, and also model contracts so you don’t have to start writing a collaborative delivery contract from scratch if you’re new to it, as well as research to support all of these best practices that are continually develop through our organization and others.

Brian Cooper

Awesome, Barb. Well, I appreciate you joining us today and helping us better understand the different collaborative delivery methods that are out there for utilities.

Barb Martin

Thanks for shining a spotlight on this important topic.

Brian Cooper

Remember, you can always connect with us by visiting our website, maguirewater.com. You can ask us questions by sending us an e-mail at info at maguirewater.com, or you can follow or reach out to us on any of our social media platforms. We’re on Facebook, X, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Thank you for joining us on the Maguire Podcast.